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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,279 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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 Posted - 2009/06/16 : 21:02:30
quote:
Originally posted by DOCTOR_HARDCORE_HTID:
The way some of yous are bitching on this subject you would think it was your own songs that people download. Its not so stop worrying yourself, and yeah i think if people want to download music, games, movies they should. Why not? and people can say its wrong blah blah blah, but whos actually cares what they think? its simple do what you want and if anyone says anything about it tell them to fucck off its none of they're business.
Paying for stuff when you can get it free LOL
obviously you dont want to let hardcore live atleast a couple of years more?
I buy what I like, the rest wont even exist illegally on my hdd (unless the format is copyprotected, which most isnt, it's legal in sweden), and if it did, it's propably because it's unreleased and is taken from a mix
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2009/06/16 21:09:36 |
Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,279 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2009/06/16 : 21:04:44
Like Nav said, if it wheren't for the internet (and file sharing, which I'm not sad over), There would be a very large chance I'd never get into hardcore. Sure, I did have both Off Yer Nut!! 1 and 2 before I even knew what a mp3 was, but tbh I never liked those CDs and where about to throw them out, which I actually did later by misstake :(
So File sharing has it Pro's and Con's, sadly the Con's is larger today than it was before.
*misstakenly pressed quote instead of edit*
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2009/06/16 21:08:11 |
Triquatra
Moderator
United Kingdom
12,640 posts
Joined: Nov, 2003
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Posted - 2009/06/16 : 21:29:47
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
tbh I never liked those CDs
:O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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TheOneNOnly
Advanced Member
United States
1,937 posts
Joined: Oct, 2008
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Posted - 2009/06/16 : 22:54:57
Stealing something still on selves of stores, and able to be bought from the music company, is wrong. There's no way to get around it.
It is stealing, and no amount of word twisting will make it not. You are taking something still on the market, without paying for it, and using it for yourself. The record company doesn't make money off you taking the song, and neither does the Artist. You are stealing. You took something that wasn't yours to have, and took potential money out of Artist's pockets.
This is why I hate people who think this stealing helps people get into the scene. If someone stole the music before (For other genre's) whats saying they won't continue to keep doing these things? Sure, some have stole, then changed. But that's not everyone; and the problem is doing nothing but growing.
I don't mind sharing files of things that aren't on the market anymore, things like songs from the 90s. But taking a file of something still on the market from the record company, and giving it to others, you're a dealer of illegal goods (In my eyes at least).
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Nav
New Member
United States
76 posts
Joined: Nov, 2008
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Posted - 2009/06/16 : 23:24:51
quote:
Originally posted by TheOneNOnly:took potential money out of Artist's pockets.
So, every user the illegally downloaded a song is not going to buy it? What if they had never heard of it aside from that download? Piracy is beneficial for lesser-known artists who need exposure, as it lets more people discover their music without the possible disappointment of wasting money.
If they like the music, they buy it. It's just that simple.
Thanks to Samination for being one of the few level-headed, non-biased individuals on here.
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mj-dream
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,440 posts
Joined: Jan, 2005
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Posted - 2009/06/16 : 23:41:55
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
Like Nav said, if it wheren't for the internet (and file sharing, which I'm not sad over), There would be a very large chance I'd never get into hardcore. Sure, I did have both Off Yer Nut!! 1 and 2 before I even knew what a mp3 was, but tbh I never liked those CDs and where about to throw them out, which I actually did later by misstake :(
So File sharing has it Pro's and Con's, sadly the Con's is larger today than it was before.
*misstakenly pressed quote instead of edit*
you threw off yer nut 1 and 2 away :O wow
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Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 01:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by Nav:
quote:
Originally posted by TheOneNOnly:took potential money out of Artist's pockets.
So, every user the illegally downloaded a song is not going to buy it? What if they had never heard of it aside from that download? Piracy is beneficial for lesser-known artists who need exposure, as it lets more people discover their music without the possible disappointment of wasting money.
If they like the music, they buy it. It's just that simple.
Thanks to Samination for being one of the few level-headed, non-biased individuals on here.
I wont comment on your reply to mine, it was as complete trash as your first.
with this one exception.
quote:
If 10 people originally would have bought it, 10 people will buy it. However, 10 more will download it, and a few of those will buy it too. Now 15 people have bought it. Piracy does not replace purchasing. It only adds to the number of people that purchase. Why? Because you can't pirate a record. You can only pirate a file that contains music.
no. If ten people bought it originally, only 5 will now (i say 5 not 1, because people that bought underground hardcore back then actually know the value of buying their music) and those five will download it, along with 10 more. Now that those people have the file, why would they other buying it? why would you pay for what you already have, even if you gain it illegitimately?
Now to this post:
"What if they had never heard of it aside from that download?"
Thats invalid anyway. People dont just download something with no idea what it is. They download something because they have heard some, liked it, and want more. hence, they have heard some already, and instead of going to a cd store to listen to it FIRST. they download it instead and then dont pay for it.
Piracy is beneficial for lesser-known artists who need exposure, as it lets more people discover their music without the possible disappointment of wasting money.
ermm. yeh sure they might gain some exposure, to what cost? "Oh, i really like this guy, i'l see if i can find anything else by him on lime.wire or tor.rents sites. This end up with the producer losing the copyright to his tracks and loss of income. So while they might gain some exposure, they dont gain anything from it anyway.
If they like the music, they buy it. It's just that simple.
Thats clearly not been the case for every other music genre, why should it be for this one? the 16 year olds dont give a ****
Thanks to Samination for being one of the few level-headed, non-biased individuals on here.
Samination is far from level-headed and non-biased. Do some research.
quote:
and it CLEARLY states that piracy is TAKING SOMETHING FROM SOMEONE ELSE without their permission. It doesn't have to do with GAINING an item, it has to do with the other person LOSING an item...
How slowly do I have to say this? YOUR TAKING THE COPYRIGHT THAT THE PRODUCER OWNS without their PERMISSION
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Nav
New Member
United States
76 posts
Joined: Nov, 2008
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 02:39:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
How slowly do I have to say this? YOUR TAKING THE COPYRIGHT THAT THE PRODUCER OWNS without their PERMISSION
I just had a long discussion with a friend of mine, and I realized that trying to convince anyone on a site so biased as this is a waste of time. I'll leave some closing statements, then I'll get out of here. It's obvious that nobody is willing to be open to another viewpoint, so I'm not going to bother trying.
The only comment I feel it necessary to respond to in your post is that one. Note that copyright is something that can never be taken away from another, only gained. Just because you download a track does not mean that the producer loses the copyright. He can still do what he wants with it, it is not a loss to him. It is just a gain for you.
One could argue that he is losing revenue, but your argument was based upon copyrights, not upon revenue. I'm not going to argue here since people have extremely different viewpoints. I believe that if people like the music they download, then they will buy it. You all believe the opposite, that they will not buy it if they can find a download.
My final statement on this:
The world of copyrights and music distribution is not CHANGING, it has ALREADY CHANGED. However the labels choose to cope is up to them, however if they do not change themselves to respond, they're going to die. Simple as that.
Innovations come along every so often throughout the course of technological advancement. When one does happen to come along, sometimes things are rendered obsolete. People can protest, but eventually the obsolete method or object will die out completely, and will be replaced by those using or responding to the innovation.
The internet represents an innovation. The ability to download music easily and in high quality formats makes the traditional record label to artist to consumer relationship completely obsolete. It's too late: The internet has been invented. All that can be done now is change, or die out.
Hope this makes sense. If not, then you probably shouldn't be arguing in a thread devoted to the discussion of complex issues such as these.
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Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 02:58:02
quote:
Originally posted by Nav:
quote:
Originally posted by Lilley:
How slowly do I have to say this? YOUR TAKING THE COPYRIGHT THAT THE PRODUCER OWNS without their PERMISSION
I just had a long discussion with a friend of mine, and I realized that trying to convince anyone on a site so biased as this is a waste of time. I'll leave some closing statements, then I'll get out of here. It's obvious that nobody is willing to be open to another viewpoint, so I'm not going to bother trying.
The only comment I feel it necessary to respond to in your post is that one. Note that copyright is something that can never be taken away from another, only gained. Just because you download a track does not mean that the producer loses the copyright. He can still do what he wants with it, it is not a loss to him. It is just a gain for you.
One could argue that he is losing revenue, but your argument was based upon copyrights, not upon revenue. I'm not going to argue here since people have extremely different viewpoints. I believe that if people like the music they download, then they will buy it. You all believe the opposite, that they will not buy it if they can find a download.
Good God, your such a ****ing idiot. But then what else should we expect from a sixteen year old living in America?
When you download a track you have not paid for the copyright. It is a loss to the producer, because he owns the copyright, and you have to pay for it for the privilege of listening to the track. If you do not pay for it you have stolen it. Any court in any country will agree with me so i dont give a **** if you dont.
The buying of the copyright is the producer's revenue. Note that the purchasing of a cd or vinyl is purchasing for permission to use the track under copyright. This is how owning a cd and and owing permission to play under copyright work together. They are one and the same. Therefore I am arguing about revenue as well but your to stupid to see that.
quote:
It's obvious that nobody is willing to be open to another viewpoint
neither are you mate, calling a kettle black there are we?
quote:
I believe that if people like the music they download, then they will buy it
If you really believe that you need to get out of your little ****ing fantasy land, wake up and open your eyes to the real world.
quote:
so I'm not going to bother trying
good. your so full of shit its coming out your mouth. And it was starting to stink. clean up your mess and go
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Edited by - Lilley on 2009/06/17 02:59:39 |
Nav
New Member
United States
76 posts
Joined: Nov, 2008
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 03:38:53
I think we are discussing different things. I am talking about downloading music to listen to at home. I think you are talking about downloading music to play out and to earn revenue with.
If making money with music that you've downloaded illegally, then it is absolutely not OK, and I completely disagree that it is allowed. However, if all you're doing is listening on the rides to and from school/work, or just for personal use, I do not believe that it is so wrong.
If I am correct in that this was the misunderstanding, than I can definitely withdraw some of what I have said earlier. Otherwise, I think my position stands. I understand where you all are coming from, but I do not agree if you are applying the same argument to home use, as it is nigh-impossible to enforce (and is generally seen as carrying little to no actual moral negativity).
Also, please don't judge me based on age. I am not your standard generic little American 15/16 year old who loves commercial hiphop and wouldn't read a book if his life depended on it. I've done research through books, articles, and other sources, and I have come to the conclusions that I have come to based on what I have experienced. While living in America has certainly made my view of the Hardcore scene different from what it might actually be (considering America doesn't HAVE a hardcore scene), I think that I can still accurately relate to what is happening, if not in real life, than from various books I have read about the culture.
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atomsk
Advanced Member
United States
1,660 posts
Joined: Jan, 2009
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 03:45:16
quote:
Originally posted by Nav:
If making money with music that you've downloaded illegally, then it is absolutely not OK, and I completely disagree that it is allowed. However, if all you're doing is listening on the rides to and from school/work, or just for personal use, I do not believe that it is so wrong.
i feel the same way
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Lilley
Advanced Member
Australia
3,740 posts
Joined: Jul, 2006
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 03:46:33
quote:
Originally posted by Nav:
I think we are discussing different things. I am talking about downloading music to listen to at home. I think you are talking about downloading music to play out and to earn revenue with.
nup. dowloading without specified use. we are talking about the same thing.
quote:
If making money with music that you've downloaded illegally, then it is absolutely not OK, and I completely disagree that it is allowed. However, if all you're doing is listening on the rides to and from school/work, or just for personal use, I do not believe that it is so wrong.
If I am correct in that this was the misunderstanding, than I can definitely withdraw some of what I have said earlier. Otherwise, I think my position stands. I understand where you all are coming from, but I do not agree if you are applying the same argument to home use, as it is nigh-impossible to enforce (and is generally seen as carrying little to no actual moral negativity).
covered this
quote:
Also, please don't judge me based on age. I am not your standard generic little American 15/16 year old who loves commercial hiphop and wouldn't read a book if his life depended on it. I've done research through books, articles, and other sources, and I have come to the conclusions that I have come to based on what I have experienced. While living in America has certainly made my view of the Hardcore scene different from what it might actually be (considering America doesn't HAVE a hardcore scene), I think that I can still accurately relate to what is happening, if not in real life, than from various books I have read about the culture.
that may be, but your still playing with the unicorns.
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Nav
New Member
United States
76 posts
Joined: Nov, 2008
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 04:00:28
Explain. I know you already think you have explained yourself, but you have not. Define piracy, define stealing (show me sources), and then explain how:
1. Every download would have been a sale had the download not existed, and
2. Piracy is killing the scene.
I feel as though I present an argument, and people shoot down my argument, but do not explain their own sides completely. Once I hear an argument that makes sense, I'll **** off back to my land of supposed unicorns and billion dollar hiphop stars called American Teenager Land that every teenager living in America inhabits.
The rest of the posts have simply been opinions about fairness of prices.
Thanks in advance for clarifying this. I thought I had read enough, but I obviously have no idea what is actually going on if my views are blatantly incorrect, as they have been made out to be.
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Future_Shock
Advanced Member
Australia
2,483 posts
Joined: Apr, 2007
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 04:09:58
quote:
Originally posted by atomsk:
quote:
Originally posted by Nav:
If making money with music that you've downloaded illegally, then it is absolutely not OK, and I completely disagree that it is allowed. However, if all you're doing is listening on the rides to and from school/work, or just for personal use, I do not believe that it is so wrong.
i feel the same way
That's because your generation is ****ed! It is SO bad that you can't see anything wrong with that.
I've heard the argument "i can't afford it" and that is NO excuse. Just because you can't afford it, how does that, in any way, entitle you to not having to pay for it?
In regards to what the other person said before "i believe if people download it, and they like it, they will buy it" is ****ing NONSENSE.
Seriously, if that happened then the music industry as a whole wouldn't be the shadow of it's former self than it is. I think the last article i read said that the music industry as a whole makes 5% of what it did 5 years ago. Do some research for **** sake. If people downloaded and then bought, this wouldn't be happening.
I am so shocked that you think it's okay to download for personal use. Is it okay to steal a ferrari, aslong as you're just driving it to and from school, not making any money from it from races? ****ing idiots both of you.
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Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,279 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2009/06/17 : 04:25:20
quote:
Originally posted by Andy_Influx:
That's because your generation is ****ed! It is SO bad that you can't see anything wrong with that.
I've heard the argument "i can't afford it" and that is NO excuse. Just because you can't afford it, how does that, in any way, entitle you to not having to pay for it?
In regards to what the other person said before "i believe if people download it, and they like it, they will buy it" is ****ing NONSENSE.
Seriously, if that happened then the music industry as a whole wouldn't be the shadow of it's former self than it is. I think the last article i read said that the music industry as a whole makes 5% of what it did 5 years ago. Do some research for **** sake. If people downloaded and then bought, this wouldn't be happening.
I am so shocked that you think it's okay to download for personal use. Is it okay to steal a ferrari, aslong as you're just driving it to and from school, not making any money from it from races? ****ing idiots both of you.
That's complete CRAP!
If the music industry only made 5% of what it did 5 years ago, IT would have filed for a bankrupcy already.
Whatever research you read, it's completly biased since none of the larger labels have volentareily wanted to show any real salefigures.
Here's a, what I know an unbiased article; http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/jun/09/games-dvd-music-downloads-piracy
And Nav, lilley's right, Im way to biased to be low-levelheaded :P
Triq and mj-dream, as I said, I did it by misstake :P I recently rebought OYN!!2
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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Edited by - Samination on 2009/06/17 04:35:02 |
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